Arsenal Banter Archive December 15 2012

15 Dec 2012 19:48:05
Stoner: sorry for late reply, been away...will address your posts now!

You made a point about Arsene not understanding why it's not going right for this club and that kind of sums up the problem in the first place. Arsene somehow misses what the whole world sees. Is nobody advising him? I mean, even if he watched feedback on MOTD he would improve.

You ask a good question with would we be bothered about how the club is run if we were winning things but in response I'd say the way the club is run is a massive factor in why we aren't winning things. If the club was run differently we probably would be winning things BUT not with Wenger in control because he has made it very clear 1) he believes he IS arsenal and 2) HIS beliefs are that HE does not want to spend lots on good players. He will stand there and say he hates the sugar daddies and that we run our club with class and we survive on our own resources but he then comes out with he will not even spend those self-made resources on the best players and wages! He's a hypocrite. His personal agendas conflict with modern football - how can he still be in charge if this is the case?

Our club is his personal toy regardless of what goes on in the back with the board. This I am very convinced by. He is the one who will not sign certain players but will choose others. Enrique was a first choice prem LB sold to Lpool for 5.5m - Arsene thought it would be better for the club to sign an out-of-favour unfit older left back from a weaker league. That is just utter lunacy. And just one example. He seems to by into hype too. The Ox- 12-15m. Zaha 10m. How much was Theo? Yet he won't spend double that on an established world class international forward with 5 years of top flight experience for club and country. He'd never sign Suarez for 24m. He's a joke.

Wenger's PERSONAL ideals get in the way of the club progressing. He wants to bring through youth...so what he does is sign rubbish players and not bring many through. He just spends tiny amounts on 18yr old kids hoping in 2 seasons time they will have developed enough to hit the first team. They rarely do and it seems even if they are going to, it's not before they get loaned out a billion times when they're clearly an improvement on what we've got.

So one ideal is the not signing top players.

Another is wages - he doesn't believe wages should be a certain amount. Fine. What does Arsenal football club believe though with regards to the current market rates? If we want to compete, we have to pay the rates. Not signing a player because they want 100k and we're offering 75 is quite frankly a disgrace - you either want that player or you don't. You cannot say you are serious about any signing or that you have used your superior experienced managerial judgement that THEY are the puzzle piece if you won't pay what similar calibre players get at poorer clubs. Simple as. Look at Spurs- they managed to land Adebayor regardless of his wages because they wanted HIM. That is what a football club does! With us a player is only good enough IF he falls into this imaginary wage/price category that has been totally imagined by Wenger.

Another is player status - he will choose status over talent/form all day long. Prime example was when he took off the Ox - our best player by a stretch- and brought on Arshavin when we played Man U at home last season. Robin was in shock, The Ox was in shock, the whole entire crowd even the Man U fans were in shock, and he brought on sadly our most out-of-form player when we were coming back into that game like nobody's business. His words were 'how can anyone question my decision - I took off a player with little experience of these games and replaced him with an experienced world class international' - what a tool, totally disregarding the fact that The Ox was our strongest player. Sorry but it is actually moments like those that hammer in the final coffin nail of our best players desire to stay at Arsenal. Another example is dropping Jenko as soon as Sagna was fit even though Sagna could quite easily have played in the cup games. No sane manager tinkers with their defence when it was the best defence in the league for most of the season possibly even right up until Jenko was dropped. You just do not do it! What, Sagna's back so he just walks back into the team? B*****s.

He pays players on potential - big contracts before they have proven themselves at AFC. Djourou 'could be good' so I'll stick him on a wopper. Terrible resource management.

Some of his etiquette is awful. I hate to admit this but I went to a very traditional private school from 7 -13yrs and I can recognise some things in Wenger that are rooted in traditions of 'excellence'. One of these is that he decides the subs before the game a lot of the time. Naturally when a player has been injured you might say 'Jack you're getting 60 mins today' so that's fine. But to play The Ox, watch him tear Man U a new one, and sub him just because you agreed you would before a ball had even been kicked....shocking. I understand why he does this - it's an old-school etiquette thing. You don't shout at your players on the sideline because you believe they are already briefed so well that being there is really just a formality for the manager. I have had this in sport before. It's fine if you're rolling out Barcelona and winning 5-0 every game. We aren't.

This is not even mentioning squad selection, formation, tactics and coaching. This is a mindset problem. 10 years ago this was not a problem because it was largely a 2-horse race and we had a ridiculous team and the other teams around us were terrible compared with their modern versions. Football has changed but Wenger has not only stuck to his beliefs I think he's actually bought into them even more, almost in disdain for the modern game. Why is he here?

It is clear to me he puts his own agendas ahead of the success of the club. He would rather develop a kid than buy a great player...yet he does spend money. Makes no sense and this is what the fans hate. He lies, he's hypocritical, he is dishonest with the fans and constantly undermines something he once said not long ago. 'We are ambitious.' 'How can we say we are ambitious if we sell our best player?' 'I'm selling Fabregas for £35m.' One example.

Our football is terrible at the moment too. Really bad. Were we playing 433 say 4-7 seasons ago? I don't remember we were.

Another thing - he says totally meaningless things like 'this is the most focused squad ever' etc etc. Yes Arsene, but focus doesn't equate to talent. Gervinho seems to focus more on going to ground than scoring. I want to hear him say 'this is the most talented squad ever' and believe him when he says it. A little something on focus vs talent - Milner vs Tevez. Milner is a great footballer, but one of his biggest strengths is his focus. He has the talent IF he works. And he is probably the hardest-working player in the league. He trains more, he is the most serious-looking guy ever, his team mates all say it, he hardly even celebrates when he scores. It's job done. Assess. Improve. He has the talent, but his focus is what helps him realise it. Tevez on the other hand can go awol, not train, be absent for weeks and weeks then walk back into the team and be MOTM. He is another class. We had players like that - Henry for example...all he had to do was wake up and he was that good. He doesn't need to focus because he's that good. Gervinho without focus? Disaster.

Scouting - sorry but why do we send scouts to watch Begovic? Everybody KNOWS he would be a massive improvement on what we have! Our scouting network is the biggest joke of the club. They watched Lille, ignored Cabaye and Hazard and came back with Gervinho haha. They scouted Samba...what for? He was one of the most iconic performers in the league in his last 2 seasons in England. Just utter lunacy some of the stuff I read about our bloody 'scouting network', it's a disgrace. any manager who needs to scout an EPL player does not deserve their job as far as I am concerned.

Lastly - types of players. We keep signing players who won't take on and beat their man. It's killing us! Spurs - Bale and Lennon take on players for fun. Mata, Tevez, Valencia, Nani....the list is long for top players at better clubs who beat players. My tactic on FIFA as I basically never play it is beat one player, pass the ball. I win a lot like this. Why is Arshavin not our creative mid sometimes? With Santi out wide like Silva plays? Why does the Ox not play up front when he is clearly one of the biggest goal-threats at the club? When Mata isn't out wide he starts alongside Torres! I mean there is just so much oversight that is managerial.

I appreciate Charlie's opinion and I feel he doesn't warrant the disagrees he gets, and actually it's probably the manner and regularity of his posts that gets him his rep/disagrees. But what he says is not all wrong. Regardless of the running of the club, there is simply too much wrong with the team and the way we play as well as the squad we have, and this rests solely with the manager. Fergie nearly got sacked and has since adapted to the modern game and won. Wenger has pined for the dark ages and is using AFC as his personal vehicle for trying to stamp his agendas on the modern world.

Arsene - you have enough money now to build your own football club buy some great french players and join a league if you want to do things like it's 1950. It isn't, get with the times. Sort the wage bill out, sort the formation out, let Bould do his job, sort the squad out, sort the FOOTBALL COACHING out and stop dragging the club through the mud, this, rather like my post, has gone on for long enough!

Metal Gooner {Ed007's Note - Nice post MG, I enjoyed reading that.}

Well put Raz.
Ike.

Metal I find your post very interesting. I would question your thought process however, allow me to elaborate.

All aspects of your post focus on Arsene Wenger during this barren spell of silverware. His tactics, methods, spending are all deemed inadequate because we have not won anything for a significant period of time.

However I ask you to comment on your vantage point of Arsene during our years of success, for at that point in time he could do no wrong. The reason I ask this is because if Arsene is the one constant during this period there must have been other factors which has caused his change in behaviour, explain to me why he would not want to win any more silverware?

I believe Arsene needs a hand, I believe Arsene is not without fallacy, but I do know that a great manager does not change his methods without reason.

Perhaps this is where you, Charlie and I disagree. Ive always believed that the owner of a business has a greater influence than an employee. Silent Stan has never put any money out of pocket in any of his sports franchises (Nuggets, Rams, Avalanche and now Arsenal) but he has taken profit from all of his possessions. Yet you assume that Arsene has enough money?

The club as it stands has an ethos of profitability based on performance. Why? Because it serves the bottom line well and because the market allows them too!

Its easy to point fingers at Arsene, and I agree he is with fault but I challenge you to name one manager who can handle the construct of our club as it currently stands (A balance of profitability and performance).

Perhaps the real fault lies here with us, the supporters who fill the stadium each and every week buying the most expensive ticket in the land.

Metal its easy to note flaws in a person, but its not easy to always see their true value until either they're gone or until the truth in full is known.

Until you or anyone can show me that we as a club and Arsene as a manager has the green light to spend indiscriminately to win a championship then and only then will I believe that Arsene is to blame!

Until that time I would focus my frustration at the owner, its too easy to blame Arsene. The board knows this, the owner knows this and thats why he will remain the manager of the club until he chooses because they know his true worth!

Gunners4Life, In AW we trust!

Metal, I confess I don't usually read your long posts, but this was spot on!

337

Top post from a top man!1

champagne charlie

Regardless of the funding or lack off. There have been far too many footballing mistakes. This lies soley with the manager.
GG

Quality post Metal

The Swede

Thanks all and Ed.

Gunners4Life, the point of this post was to directly respond to one of Stoner's but also to simply highlight, in my own opinion, why I think Wenger is letting the club down purely in footballing terms.

As you have noted this post has not mentioned anything to do with the board.

I know how you feel about Wenger - and whilst I have to respect everyone opinion on here, I just cannot understand how people can take the attitude of 'but if he left everything would fall apart' and 'you don't know hat you've got til it's gone' - I just don't buy it. It's not as though we've had different problems to contend with every year. We haven't. It's been the same problems every season. Player sales, followed by injuries - consistent injuries, and then worse and worse players joining the club, more and more missed opportunities in the market, the quality of the football decreasing every year, the predictability with which we fail to turn up, fail to cope with pressure, you name it, we've had the problem. People have been predicting problems for years and years later, they're coming to fruition because Wenger is simply losing touch with the modern game. There is no other way of looking at it. His nemesis Fergie proves it. Fergie adapts every year. He considers who is getting better, and why. He considers how the league is developing. He plays it like chess, considers his next move and consideres how to stay a step ahead. On top of that, what counts for more than anything, he keeps the Man U machine moving. People everywhere believe this squad is the worst he's had for a long time - and everyone knows City and Chelsea have got stronger - yet who is at the top? Man U do not understand how to lose - when it happens there's an inquest. Those players play like they'll die for him and they play as if winning the game is a formality and it's only a matter of time until they're ahead. That's not because pound for pound they're so much better than some teams - it's because he has adapted and learned how to harness the modern footballer. He can sell prestige to Welbeck and have him play for £15k per week. If he were at Arsenal he'd be flopping at £50k per week as a general rule.

Elsewhere I might do a post on the board but this was specifically why Wenger is clearly no longer what we need. I'm not saying sack him now - I think he should leave at the end of the season with his head held high. And if we fail to land top 4, I expect the new manager to come in and spend a lot of money given to him by a willing board to get us back into the top 4.

This won't happen though - because the board are who they are, and that's another post for another time!

The owner is to blame, the board is to blame, the manager is to blame. That is it. Anyone saying that Arsene is not to blame, in my opinion, is not wise.

Metal Gooner

15 Dec 2012 20:15:13
I wrote a letter to Santa hopefuly he will deliver a couple of winning presents for us this Christmas. Seriously good luck to the team over the festive period and can I also take this opportunity to wish the Arsenal universe a "Meet Christmas".

MOFAYA

Nice 1 mafaya

merrry christmas to you and your family buddy!

champagne charlie

15 Dec 2012 17:51:26
wenger will always try to turn a rough diamond into a shining jewel - it can only work so many times- these days every team is on the lookout for the next big thing - every big club has scouts across the world looking for talent - they have all cottoned on to wenger's style and have become better because they are willing to spend money.
wenger is too stubborn to realise that certain players are not good enough for the club never mind the first X1( i think everybody knows who they are i just get tired of writing their names all the time), but he will insist on playing them hoping they will turn on a performance while our once rivals are 15-16 points ahead of us. When you go public and say 4th is good enough it will rub off onto players who will switch off during a game because the boss doesn't mind, managers like fergie, mourinho and even mancini you would never hear a statement like that from them. Statements like that drive away players like rvp and fabregas and deter quality players joining us, that is why we always get the leftovers no one wants ( you know the names i cant be bothered to write them). we have the funds - no one is saying go bankrupt but please have the decency to respect the very people who pay for the stadium, board and players lifestyles _THE FANS!
For the last 7 seasons most of us have been saying that the January transfer window will be wengers most important, but god help us, this one is really do or die time for wenger imo. We can't carry on feeding our rivals with players we have brought up through the ranks and help our rivals win honours we need to secure their futures and help US win trophies. A selling club will eventually lose its buying power potential of world stars. Arsenal should not be a selling club, full stop. We are up there with all the giants of Europe if we adapt our buying policy.
Silent stan, ivan gazidas are the grim reapers of this club, what is the use of having so much profit if the fans are going home booing the team they love, watching players go through the motions showing no fight bar the likes of jack ox szecs and a few others. Wenger is running the club like a business not as a manager/coach he has been sucked into the boardroom world where profit is the do all and end all, i agree we should buy within our means but a club like arsenal should not have squeaky b*m time with 25- 30 million offers.
At the start of the season bouldy was getting all the accolades of transforming our defence, since the headlines appeared our defence has disappeared. I don't know whats wrong with the coaching or there is a rift in the camp like so many ex stars have said, wenger needs to put his cards on the table and let his players and staff know whats happening.
All i can say is i hope and pray we don't sell theo, we buy a quality steely midfielder and defender and a proven goalscorer to help giroud in a 442 formation, and get rid of the endless amount of sh*te we are carrying at the club which is draining our finances. Most importantly the players begin to show the passion and fight from the start of the whistle till the end. Then and only then can wenger show his true feelings about a club he helped transform - i just hope he doesn't destroy it and his legacy!
A fed up GS

Exactly!

champagne charlie

15 Dec 2012 16:48:36
I gotta quickly just say ...

Champagne Charlie

thank you for your comments...you talk alot of sense and always question the clubs ambition in a sensible way...

Scooby Dooby K

Agreed, very knowledgable and passionate fan is our Charlie........im not saying 100% agree with everything he says, but its not unfounded like some of the meaningless drivel that gets posted.

1404

15 dec 2012 15:28:09
why does wenger joke around and say we will buy messi?

is he taking the p1$$?

we never asked for that sort of player only a better quality than what we have now!

does he think the supporters are stupid?

he sounds like peter hill-wood!

champagne charlie

Maybe he's not joking? Maybe Messi fancies a new challenge? Maybe Barca need the money? Maybe you can ask your mate 'Malaga gooner' if it's true? Isn't he due an appearance soon?

Maybe a few supporters are stupid for not having a sense of humour.

Gunner

15 Dec 2012 23:28:54
I think it's called being sarcastic to the media who are persons when it comes to AW or AFC. I don't think he is trying to insult the fans

SY4

No the actual insult to the fans was when he couldn't admit it was a disgrace when we lost against a league 2 side.

/The Swede

15 Dec 2012 15:12:29
Fact is we need players like Cavani but we wont get them as much as the fans say if we have 30million spend it signal our intent. Think about it why would he join us and not from the point of a view of a supporter. He already has big wages, champions league football a team higher in their league than us and is competing for more silverware and has a more realistic chance of winning it and won something with Napoli last season.

The quality of our squad gets worse and worse, and it's got to the point where that combined with us not winning for so long, that, even if we have all this money we are said to, the best players out there wont sign for us. Two of our latest signings Cazorla and Podolski are both said to be unhappy in the press, the first at us not replacing RVP the second at being played out of position for Gervinho. Yet again we haven't addressed issues that are their year after year like needing a defensive midfielder, yet again we have sold our best players and not replaced them properly or with equal quality, yet again the club take this high and mighty stance about the profit we make like any of our rivals or the players who left us for better wages and silverware really care, and do you honestly think in two years we will have this magic fix or that FFP will sort it out UEFA need team like United, Chelsea and Madrid it is they who people want to watch in the champions league and as such make them their money, and the way we are going do people even see us in the Champions league in the near future? Yet again Wenger talks the youth up, what youth though we only have two players from the Academy in our squad and our best young prospects were all signed from other clubs academies at 16/17. Our Tactics and game plan are one dimensional with players out of position. We have players on big wages not playing costing the club big money, yet we refuse to offer competitive high end wages, Bayern Munich's wage bill is less than us and look at the players they have, and what they have achieved in the last three years. We sign rubbish like Gervinho and suffer while Wenger keeps sticking with him and many others, a Journalist today even picked Wenger up about signing high profile duds and mention Gervinho. We have a Majority share holder who says nothing and the second biggest who isn't even allowed on the board but was sold shares by David Dein a fan favourite. We don't even have one big named player that other teams are worried about and their fans are jealous of. Do I need to continue and take about ticket prices or moving to a new stadium to be more competitive etc or the huge masses of money we are said to have but never spend? Face it there is more wrong with this club than there is right at the moment and the first thing that needs to be address is the board coming out and being honest with the fans. I'll probably get dislikes but I don't mind, all I want is this club back to its best, take a look at the players who have left us recently compared to what we have brought in, and the number of empty promises we hear year after year or the number of people who say if we had RVP still we probably wouldn't have Cazorla, why not though surely a club wanting to improve would.
I should point out I would like us to sign Cavani and would be happy if we did, but I'm not kidding myself we wont and even if we did it would take more than one player of his quality to take us back to where we were 7-10 years ago.

15 Dec 2012 14:30:20
Play 442
Giroud and Theo up front - get another striker also knowing that Pod can slip in there also

Play Santi in Pires old role on left

Get a quality right winger

Play Jack and a new Beast in central midfield. Keep Arteta, Rosicky and even Ramsey as back up

Back 4 is good if we add a new left back.

So Striker, central midfield beast plus left back.

Use the rest plus the quality youngster as back up.

Just 3 players - 10m on left back, 15m on central midfield and 25m on striker plus wages.

Not huge changes but what we need plus would love to see Theo playing and running onto flick ons, short passes from Sant and Jack etc.

Would also like to leave Theo plus striker up front when opposition has corners to scare the crap out of them and force them to leave 3 or 4 back to defend counter and help defence out like the good old days of Cole, Pires and Henry

SY4

So like this:

.................GK.................
RB.......CB..........CB........LB
.............Wanyama............
..Ben Arfa...Jack......Santi...
..........Theo..Pod/Gir..........

I would love that.

Arteta, The Ox, Rosicky, Podolski, New ST could rotate those 6 positions.

Metal Gooner

Exactly - speed and creativity from all over the pitch and two different types of front men to challenge and torment the centre halves!

Would not disrupt the team spirit or require too many changes

The bench with Arteta, Rosicky, Ox, Pod and TV or Kos would be great too

SY4

15 Dec 2012 13:06:31
I don't get why everybody is talking about getting ANOTHER striker when we clearly need a defensive mid

We are in need of both

I think we need a winger far more than a striker.

Conor

We need a dm a striker and a winger

watford gooner

15 Dec 2012 15:02:10
We need a dm, winger, striker and Lb

We only need a DM and a winger

15 Dec 2012 12:26:19
Even if we did break our record on a substantial player they would want substantial wages, but wenger wants balance in the league, so will we get an amazing player worth 30-40 or even 50 million on 80-100 thousand a week? I don't think so

Little Gooner

15 dec 2012 10:19:22
inside man,

raheem sterling wont be going no where ,he just bought a house near liverpool and is happy with the progress with contracts at liverpool

He bought a house! Oh my god he must be staying, because we don't have houses down here!

Doughnut!

Maybe as Looserpool are playing so well at the moment he might sell that house?

15 dec 2012 09:36:55
the truth of the mater is until we start paying improved wages we are only ever going to attract prospects.

podolski-prospect does not really have that big club status.living on his 100 caps for germany.£100k a week

cazorla-if we was world class he would be playing for mardid or barcelona.£75k a week.

giroud-french top goal scorer,prospect.£60k a week.

replacements for rvp and song.1 world class forward and a dm player who played nearly every game for us last season.

and people think we are going forward?

add walcott to that list and you have taken away 3 of the clubs best players last season??
arteta is not happy and you can add 1 more to the list?
vermalen looks like hes gone completely?

that was the heart out of the club from 1 season.

jack coming back should of been a bonus from last season,now hes trying to hold the team together!

can you not see this?

who's fault is that?

champagne charlie

Although i get were your coming from its not right to suggest Podolski should be tearing players apart when hes played out of position, unless im mistaken he spends most of his time helping Gibbs out at lb,
Giroud... yes top scorer in France last season, yet expected to play up front on his own in a much faster paced and physical league, gonna take him time to settle.
Santi Cazorla... is the real deal, you cannot tell me cesc, nasri, rvp, song never had a bad game or run of form, he too is settling in to the EPL.

The point being we as a fans are desperate to get the big name players in every window, in their own right Podolski, Giroud, and Santi are big name players, coming from other countries they are gonna need time to settle in, Just look at Merts and Kos as an example, shaky in their frist season yet quality there after. Seem to remember a certain Henry taking time to adapt to the EPL.......

N. Wales Gunner

Lol seriously dude. Come on now.

If cazorla was world class he would be playing for real madrid now?? are you for real? are you aware that he rejected to join real madrid TWICE!!!
not on only that he is ahead of mata in the spain squad, is that not world class enough?
say if arsenal go on a lets say 8-10 game winning run and sign 2/3 players in january will you still be upset??
yes i agree the club is not performing well, but we started well, and could always find that form again (hopefully soon). just need a few tweaks (lb, cdm, lw, st).
Waq

15 dec 2012 09:04:31
we had £154 mill in the bank dated may 31st.

i'm a season ticket holder and i did not pay my fee until well after that date.

this does not include this seasons season ticket sales and match day revenue.

please do not tell me we cant afford a better class of player.
or better wages for the best players at the club.

champagne charlie

15 Dec 2012 08:27:59
A proper rumour from the old days, love it
AG

15 dec 2012 08:02:31
hands up if your happy that arsene is about to give "ramsey" a new contract!

champagne charlie

Good to see the club trying to tie players down early. Shows they do it but some players don't want to eg Theo, RVP, Nasri etc

SY4

Charlie, Ramsey is a good player, he gives 110% every time he pulls on a shirt. He may not be a winger, but will try his best there, if you asked him to go in goal he would try his best.

This is the type of player we need around our club, he is still young and has not had his best 6 months but will get better i'm sure.

Remember we need a squad not just 11 players.

Flamini is a great example, he was awful for a while, we let his contract run down, he came in as an emergency left back for a while and was great, left on a free!

337

15 Dec 2012 03:53:29
Ed:Who's gonna sign for us? {Ed002's Note - You really need to take the time to read the posts.}